And Now A Word From Our Sponsors

by Aspasia on November 9, 2013


It is a contemptible lie for the “Religious Right,” judgmental fascists who seek to impose their personal view of Christianity on the rest of the country through political activism, and who now invade and taint the Tea Party and Liberty Movements with hateful sophistry, to amazingly claim to wave the banner of liberty in memory of our Founding Fathers. It is a strange twist of logical impossibility, veritable insanity, to hear a man profess support for the Constitution out of one side of his mouth and support for teaching the inerrancy of the Bible in public schools out of the other. These professed leaders of the Tea Party Movement, these self-proclaimed authorities on natural liberty, are vile hypocrites who twist the facts of history to suit their desire for power and control over the religious beliefs of every American.

The Religious Right Fake Tea Party is led by arrogant prideful theocrats who think they speak with spiritual authority, but clearly they don’t speak in the Spirit of the Lord. Jesus says, “My kingdom is not an earthly kingdom.” The false pastor says, “Vote for so-and-so or such-and-such bill or you are going to hell.” Jesus says, “Let the one among you who is without sin cast the first stone.” The false pastor says, “If you don’t agree with my religious views, you will not be saved.” Jesus says, “For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and everyone who humbles himself will be exalted.” The false pastor says, “I am called by God to run for political office.”

But never mind the evidence of scripture, and the words of Jesus. The fact of the matter is that this nation was not founded as a Christian nation. This nation was not founded by men who believed in the inerrancy of the Bible. It was founded by men who didn’t believe in the divinity of Jesus. It was founded by men who didn’t believe in the Trinity. It was founded by men who thought the Bible was hogwash. But even the Christian founders of this nation professed the liberty of men to believe as they wish. They respected the right of men to disagree on matters of religion, the right of all religious sects to exist, that none should be exalted or found superior over the other in the realm of government.

Fundamentalist Christian preachers certainly have a right to believe that their religious views should be imposed on the citizenry of the United States of America through political action. They are American citizens after all and like every other American have a right to freedom of thought and belief. But they cannot under any circumstance claim to support the Constitution and the ideals of liberty as proclaimed by the Founding Fathers of this country. To make such an outrageous claim would be a lie worthy of the Archon himself. In order to comprehend the opinions of the Founding Fathers regarding religious freedom in our country, let us consider their own words.

George Washington, First President of the United States of America, President of the Constitutional Convention, Signed the United States Constitution:

If they are good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa or Europe; they may be Mahometans, Jews, Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists…. [letter to Tench Tighman, 24 March 1784, when asked what type of workman to get for Mount Vernon]

I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution. [letter to United Baptists Churches of Virginia, 10 May 1789]

Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. [letter to Sir Edward Newenham, 22 June 1792]

As the contempt of the religion of a country by ridiculing any of its ceremonies, or affronting its ministers or votaries, has ever been deeply resented, you are to be particularly careful to restrain every officer from such imprudence and folly, and to punish every instance of it. On the other hand, as far as lies in your power, you are to protect and support the free exercise of religion of the country, and the undisturbed enjoyment of the rights of conscience in religious matters, with your utmost influence and authority. [letter to Benedict Arnold, 14 September 1775]

Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society. [letter to Edward Newenham, 20 October 1792]

 It is now no more that toleration is spoken of as if it were the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights, for, happily, the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens in giving it on all occasions their effectual support. [letter to Touro Synagogue, 1790]

May the children of the stock of Abraham who dwell in this land continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other inhabitants—while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and fig tree and there shall be none to make him afraid. [letter to Touro Synagogue, 1790]

John Adams, Second President of the United States of America, First Vice-President of The United States of America, Drafted and Signed the Declaration of Independence:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. [Treaty of Tripoli, 4 November 1796]

The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature: and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history… [T]he detail of the formation of the American governments… may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had any interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the inspiration of heaven… it will for ever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses… Thirteen governments thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favour of the rights of mankind. [A Defence of the Constitutions of the United States of America, 1787]

Christianity, you will say, was a fresh revelation. I will not deny this. As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed? How has it happened that all the fine arts, architecture, painting, sculpture, statuary, music, poetry, and oratory, have been prostituted, from the creation of the world, to the sordid and detestable purposes of superstition and fraud? [letter to F.A. Vanderkamp, 27 December 1816]

Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it. [letter to John Quincy Adams, 13 November 1816]

Admire and adore the Author of the telescopic universe, love and esteem the work, do all in your power to lessen ill, and increase good, but never assume to comprehend. [Written in the margin of one his books.]

The Europeans are all deeply tainted with prejudices, both ecclesiastical and temporal, which they can never get rid of. They are all infected with episcopal and presbyterian creeds, and confessions of faith. They all believe that great Principle which has produced this boundless universe, Newton’s universe and Herschell’s universe, came down to this little ball, to be spit upon by Jews. And until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world. [letter to Thomas Jefferson, 22 January 1825]

Thomas Jefferson, Third President of the United States of America, First United States Secretary of State, Principle Author of the Declaration of Independence, Signed the Declaration of Independence:

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law. [letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 10 February 1814]

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians. [letter to Richard Price, 8 January 1789]

Priests…dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live. [letter to Correa de Serra, 11 April 1820]

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting “Jesus Christ,” so that it would read “A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination. [Autobiography, 1821, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom]

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills. [letter to John Adams, 24 January 1814]

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. [Notes on Virginia, 1782]

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes. [letter to Alexander von Humboldt, 6 December 1813]

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. [Notes on Virginia, 1782]

They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion. [letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush, 23 September 1800]

I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did. [letter to John Adams, 11 April 1823]

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. [letter to Horatio G. Spafford, 17 March 1814]

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State. [letter to Danbury Baptist Association, 1 January 1802]

James Madison Jr., Fourth President of the United States of America, Third United States Secretary of State, Drafted the United States Constitution, Signed the United States Constitution, Author of the Bill of Rights, Author of the Federalist Papers:

That diabolical, hell-conceived principle of persecution rages among some; and to their eternal infamy, the clergy can furnish their quota of impas for such business… [letter to William Bradford, Jr., January 1774]

What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not. [A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785]

Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects. [letter to William Bradford, Jr., January 1774]

Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. [A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785]

…Freedom arises from the multiplicity of sects, which prevades America and which is the best and only security for religious liberty in any society. For where there is such a variety of sects, there cannot be a majority of any one sect to oppress and persecute the rest. [spoken at the Virginia convention on ratifying the Constitution, June 1778]

Whilst we assert for ourselves a freedom to embrace, to profess and observe the Religion which we believe to be of divine origin, we cannot deny equal freedom to those whose minds have not yet yielded to the evidence which has convinced us. If this freedom be abused, it is an offense against God, not against man: To God, therefore, not to man, must an account of it be rendered. [A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785]

Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize,.. [letter to William Bradford, 1 April 1774]

It was the belief of all sects at one time that the establishment of Religion by law, was right & necessary; that the true religion ought to be established in exclusion of every other; and that the only question to be decided was which was the true religion. The example of Holland proved that a toleration of sects, dissenting from the established sect, was safe & even useful. The example of the Colonies, now States, which rejected religious establishments altogether, proved that all Sects might be safely & advantageously put on a footing of equal & entire freedom…. The merit will be doubled by the other lesson that Religion flourishes in greater purity, without than with the aid of Gov. [letter to Edward Livingston, 10 July 1822]

{ 20 comments… read them below or add one }

Anne Beal November 10, 2013 at 12:09 AM

As a descendant of John Winthrop & Samuel Dudley I take exception to your delusion that America was not founded as a Christian nation. I know what they crossed the ocean to do. Most of your quotes are dated from 1774-1822. You’re 150-200 years behind the times. Try the 1620s and 30s. That’s when they got here, and established a theocracy.


Aspasia November 10, 2013 at 1:08 AM

As a descendant of Causantin mac Cinaeda DeAlpin, Eochaid of Kintyre, Ealdred of Bernicia, and Ragnar Lodbrok Sigurdsson of Denmark I think birds are pretty… I’m sorry what were we discussing again? I thought this was a genetic pissing contest.


Old Guard November 10, 2013 at 8:27 AM

A+ on the post. Thank you for bringing all of this research together.

It is amusing that Anne Beale takes exception to “your” views. I think it is the views of the actual founders of the United States of America whose views you are bringing to us. Assuming you agree with them because you are not hiding them or using political and religious dogma to grossly misinterpret them.

Keep up the great work. And add one more regular reader to your blog!


Hortensius Gallus November 10, 2013 at 10:09 AM

Praise be to Baal that the Founding Fathers wisdom led them to their successful efforts to undo the attempts made by Anne’s family to form a Theocracy. The United States of America did not become a nation until 1776, therefore Aspasia’s timeline is spot on.


Bob Ellis November 10, 2013 at 1:27 PM

Sounds like this should be called “RINO Territory,” as it seems to share more of the revisionist anti-Christian liberal sentiment of Godless Democrats just like RINOs do.

For anyone who has ever bothered to do more than consume and regurgitate revisionist propaganda, it is beyond obvious that America was founded by Bible-believing Christians upon Christian principles. Indeed, were it not for these Bible-believing Christians, there simply would be no United States.

For anyone interested in the truth, I have been compiling bits of the voluminous amounts of proof that America was founded on Christian principles by Bible-believing Christians:


Aspasia November 10, 2013 at 1:57 PM

Bob, the fact that there were Christians as well as Deists involved in the founding of this nation does not make it a Christian nation anymore than it makes it a Deist nation. Both John Adams and Thomas Jefferson were Deists who believed the Bible was mostly a pile of mythology. Jefferson and Adams were the principal authors of the Declaration of Independence, and Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli that stated “the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..” with the approval of President Washington. Now Washington may have been a Christian, but he spoke like a Deist calling God “Providence” and never spoke of Jesus. James Madison likely leaned toward Deism, as he was known to read Deist texts. These men authored and signed the Declaration of Independence, The United States Constitution, and The Bill of Rights. They were the first four Presidents of the United States of America. I have provided ample original documentation (the Founders “in their own words” as Glenn Beck would say) that clearly indicates that all of them had very little interest in organized Christianity and distrusted any clergy involvement in politics. They welcomed Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and Atheists to the United States of America. I am entirely amused that after I have provided 33 quotes sourced from the original documents of Washington, Adams, Jefferson, and Madison your only response is that I “regurgitate revisionist propaganda” with a link to to articles you have written, without any original evidence to back up your claims.


Bob Ellis November 10, 2013 at 2:15 PM

I addressed most if not all of the fallacies and out-of-context quotes you proffered as fake evidence that the founders were not Bible-believing Christians. Perhaps you should read some of the material in the links I provided before you embarrass yourself further.

Neither John Adams nor Thomas Jefferson (and almost none of the other founders) were deists. Deists basically believe that a deity created the universe and then buggered off, leaving it alone without his intervention or care. It would be illogical for a deist to attend church, pray, call for others to pray, or even read the Bible for that matter, because according to deism, none of it would matter–the deity had buggered off and didn’t care.

It is therefore incomprehensible that a deist would read the Bible (as both Jefferson and Adams did), attend church services regularly (as both Jefferson and Adams did–in the U.S. Capitol Building, no less, for Jefferson), or issue thanksgiving proclamations (as Adams and Jefferson did), or send missionaries to the Native Americans (as Jefferson did).

Also, no deist would pray (as George Washington did), or ask for God’s assistance in carrying out his oath (as Washington did), or travel some 10 miles through the wilderness to attend church services on cold Virginia Sundays (as Washington did).

They had good reason to be wary of organized religion–given its history in Europe where state-run churchs and church-run states had participated in gross oppression–but “organized religion” frequently has nothing whatsoever to do with authentic Christianity. The founders, unlike so many today, knew and understood that. Their wariness of “organized religion” no more made them deists or pagans than me leaving a particular church over a disagreement with the leadership of that church would make me a deist or pagan.

As for the Treaty of Tripoli (a favorite of God-hating Leftists), I will point you specifically here in the hopes that you might be open to the truth when it is laid out for you in detail:

I would encourage you to check out the rest of the information I provided. It seems you’ve been consuming some very bad Leftist propaganda. Understandable in this day and age of deception, but you don’t have to allow that ignorance to continue.


Aspasia November 10, 2013 at 3:37 PM

Bob, you are once again giving away your absolutist black-and-white “my way or the highway” view on reality with your comments. Deists, like Quakers, thought for themselves and were not uniform in their beliefs. Many of them read the Bible, perhaps more as I do, believing that within the pages of errors and nonsense valuable information is to be found. Of course, as a Christian I believe in prophecy and an active spiritual involvement in the material world, where as a Deist does not believe God intervenes in the material world. Some Deists considered themselves a type of Christian, ignoring what they saw as superstitious beliefs in the Bible. I don’t know where you are getting your information that Deists never read the Bible. You would probably also state that Christians never read the Quran, or how about the Book of Mormon? I have read parts of both, as well as some parts of the Vedic documents, and the Apocrypha. I am entirely puzzled at how you can consider your arguments logical and worthwhile. I have already stated that George Washington may have been more of a Christian bent, where is the argument there? Your claim that Jefferson was a Christian is hilarious to me. He called Calvin a demon-worshipper. He stated that parts of the Bible were written by inferior minds, that most of the Bible was a “dung-hill.” Did I take that out of context? lol. The Muslims think that Jesus was a prophet, while Jefferson thought Jesus was a moral teacher. Does that make Muslims more Christian than Jefferson? Certainly according to your argument they would have to be. Surely they were stronger Christians than Jefferson. And John Adams? He said the idea that God came down to “our little ball” was blasphemy. He said Christianity was full of superstition and fraud, infected with confessions of faith. And why are you arguing about the Treaty of Tripoli. It is entirely irrelevent if it is a “favorite of God-hating Leftists.” It’s a signed treaty by John Adams under the Presidency of George Washington stating that we were not founded as a Christian nation. Signed. Legal. Document.

Bob, in your worldview all good men must be Christian. The Founding Fathers were good men. Therefore, they all must be Fundamentalist Bible-believing Christians or your deluded reality is destroyed. You can’t handle the truth. And why? Because you are intolerant. Because you are prejudiced. Because you are superstitious. Because you persecute those who disagree with you based on religion. You are the clergy and the ecclesiastical establishment that the Founders fought against when they created this nation. You don’t speak for the Founding Fathers. You don’t speak for me as a conservative Republican. You don’t speak for me as a Christian. And you in no way shape or form speak for the Tea Party.


Bob Ellis November 10, 2013 at 6:41 PM

Either it is deism or it isn’t. As I explained in detail, a deist would not pray or advise others to pray, or do any of the other things I mentioned. The founders were very intelligent people, and they wouldn’t waste their time doing things that they thought simply didn’t matter. Deists believe the deity (whoever he is) who created the universe is not engaged or interested in it; therefore, there is no need for the vast majority of things Christians do–the things most of the founders did.

Whether Thomas Jefferson was actually a born-again Christian is certainly debatable, though he did in fact call himself a Christian. But there is no doubt (as I pointed out) that he did NOT behave like a deist.

Yes, one must be a Christian to be a good person. That is not to say that one cannot have good within them or do good things, but to truly be good one must follow the only good One: Jesus Christ. Daniel Webster himself acknowledged this when he said that whatever makes men good Christians makes them good citizens.

But what I understand about the founders through considerable research is not dependent on a belief or hope that they “must be Fundamentalist Bible-believing Christians.” It is based on the FACTS, and those facts (which you obviously have not bothered to read from the links I provided–especially the Treaty of Tripoli, which you are still clinging to as a faux hope of evidence for your historical revisionism) overwhelmingly point to the Bible-believing faith of almost all of the founders. Please, do yourself a favor and read the information I provided. It may challenge you, but you won’t be disappointed for having learned the truth.

I should also let you know that I am not a member of the clergy or the “ecclesiastical establishment,” nor do I even remotely call for then to run this country. If you had read the material I liked to, you would know that. But perhaps it is more convenient for you to keep believing the easy lies of liberalism than to confront the fact that you are stunningly wrong about virtually everything you have said. If you insist on living in ignorance, that is certainly your choice.

I should also point out that I’ve never heard of you in four years of working within Tea Party circles, and having helped found two Tea Party groups and having networked with countless Tea party groups here in South Dakota and nationally. I certainly don’t speak for the Tea Party, but having been involved heavily since the very beginning, I have a pretty good grasp on what Tea Party values are. Perhaps you’ve been there all along, but given that I’ve never seen or heard of you in any Tea Party context, and you seem pretty hostile to the American history that most Tea Party patriots understand, I don’t think you speak for the Tea Party either.

As to our nation’s Christian heritage, it’s no coincidence that no other nation has enjoyed the freedom, prosperity and domestic tranquility that the United States has enjoyed. It’s because no other nation (except the Old Testament nation of Israel, and then under different circumstances) was founded by Bible-believing Christians on Christian principles the way our nation was.

And denying this truth and trying to undermine that foundation threatens to bring the whole thing down–freedom and prosperity along with it.

As did George Washington, President John Adams (and others) knew this: “we have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

Finally, you called yourself a Christian, yet it seems you loathe the one you ostensibly call your God. You would consider him “prejudiced” because he said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments”–obviously preferring those who actually act like they love him. You would call him “superstitious” because he believed the Book of Genesis was written by Moses and was the inspired word of God, stating, “”Haven’t you read that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female.” You would call him “intolerant” because he said, ““I am the way [not A way] and the truth [not A truth] and the life [not A life]. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

In the eyes of the enemies of God, Jesus was perhaps “intolerant” and “superstitious” and “prejudiced.” But since he created the universe and will judge it someday, I’ll throw my lot in with him over the lies of the Left and the world any day.

I highly suggest you consider abandoning the lies of the Left and doing the same.


Aspasia November 10, 2013 at 7:45 PM

Wow. A person has to be Christian to be a good person. Your judgmental insanity is amazing. On the subject of Deism, there is no reason that a Deist-leaning President would not lead a public prayer. You will notice, if you actually read the Thanksgiving Prayers they gave that they did not mention Jesus. When a person says “God” or “Providence” it is only immediately a reference to Jesus in your twisted mind. Just because you define God as Jesus doesn’t mean everyone else on the planet does. Also you keep going on and on about “Deists never pray” because they don’t think that God interferes in the material world, which only demonstrates how unenlightened and selfish your own prayers are. Have you ever considered the possibility that someone might pray to God just to say “I love you God, thank you for my life.” Not every person on this planet is so spiritually stunted that they believe that prayer is just an opportunity to ask God for things. Also, your views on Deism and whether or not the Founders were Deist is in direct conflict with the view of the rest of the planet:

If Thomas Jefferson called himself a Christian, provide the evidence. Meanwhile:

“And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, 11 April 1823

“It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, 17 Jan 1825

“As you say of yourself, I too am an Epicurian. I consider the genuine (not the imputed) doctrines of Epicurus as containing everything rational in moral philosophy which Greece and Rome have left us.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, 31 Oct 1819

“Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.” – Thomas Jefferson, Francis Adrian Van der Kemp, 30 July 1816

Not that Jefferson’s religious leanings have any bearing on the fact that this nation was not founded as a Christian nation, since we have the Treaty of Tripoli, which you cannot dispute no matter how you froth at the mouth.

And then you finalize your ridiculous argument, once again raving in unintelligible circles while ignoring all clear factual evidence, by saying I must not be a Christian, and must loathe God, because I have disagreed with you and pointed out the reality of the historical documentation, and for evidence of my loathing of God and lack of Christianity you provide your lunatic interpretation of the Bible and my statements.

And so we have the viewpoint of Bob Ellis – “One must be Christian to be a good person.”

And we have the viewpoint of George Washington – “If they are good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa or Europe; they may be Mahometans, Jews, Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists…. ”

Clearly Bob Ellis and George Washington are not in agreement. And that is because George Washington was a great man who loved all Americans, while Bob Ellis is an intolerant man who would make Americans conform to his own insane beliefs.

Bob Ellis November 10, 2013 at 6:49 PM

Oh, and though it’s starting to look like you don’t have the slightest interest in really learning the truth, I’ll offer one more piece of information that SHOULD be very persuasive to anyone who is even remotely objective.

I highly encourage you to read the 1892 case Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, in which the U.S. Supreme Court researched the question of whether the United States was a Christian nation. An excerpt:

If we pass beyond these matters to a view of American life, as expressed by its laws, its business, its customs, and its society, we find every where a clear recognition of the same truth. Among other matters, note the following: the form of oath universally prevailing, concluding with an appeal to the Almighty; the custom of opening sessions of all deliberative bodies and most conventions with prayer; the prefatory words of all wills, “In the name of God, amen;” the laws respecting the observance of the Sabbath, with the general cessation of all secular business, and the closing of courts, legislatures, and other similar public assemblies on that day; the churches and church organizations which abound in every city, town, and hamlet; the multitude of charitable organizations existing every where under Christian auspices; the gigantic missionary associations, with general support, and aiming to establish Christian missions in every quarter of the globe…

And here it is:

…These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation.

If the U.S. Supreme Court could figure it out (in addition to all the other evidence, some of which I have provided links for), who are we to try to deny the obvious historical truth?


Aspasia November 10, 2013 at 7:55 PM

Bob, that is only evidence that the Supreme Court decided the United States was a Christian nation in 1892, and in no way invalidates the obvious fact that this nation was not founded as a Christian nation more than 100 years before that, as evidenced by the Treaty of Tripoli in 1796.

Bob Ellis November 10, 2013 at 9:03 PM

I can see you have not the slightest interest in the truth; a classic liberal failing. Like Christ counseled to do when the truth has been offered and completely rejected, I shake the dust from my feet and move on. Though you can’t bring yourself to admit it now, I do hope you will swallow some of that pride and read the material at the links I provided. Most of us were misled at one point or another, and and it’s never too late (except when we’re dead and facing the Judge) to come to terms with the truth.


Aspasia November 10, 2013 at 9:18 PM

Thank you for your judgmental opinions regarding my religious beliefs, a topic which has nothing to do with the subject at hand: the fact that this nation was not founded as a Christian nation. And to quote myself from the original article:

Jesus says, “Let the one among you who is without sin cast the first stone.” The false pastor says, “If you don’t agree with my religious views, you will not be saved.”


Old Guard November 11, 2013 at 8:35 AM

Aspasia, you can explain it to them, but unfortunately you can’t understand it for them…


Steve Sibson November 12, 2013 at 10:32 AM

See the link for an interesting analysis that says the founders were neither Christian nor deists:


Aspasia November 12, 2013 at 1:17 PM

That book looks interesting, thanks Sibby.


Steve Sibson November 12, 2013 at 3:33 PM

Yes, it is very interesting. I read most of it and then lent it to a professor who used in as research on a paper. He left town without returning it so I need to buy another one.


Deb Geelsdottir November 23, 2013 at 8:19 PM

Good post, Aspasia. Your conclusion is right on. The evidence is very strong. Assertions, on the other hand, are not facts, in spite of what Mr. Ellis might say. He has a well-earned reputation for absolutism. Old Guard, on the other hand, has good advice.


Victor Hilarius December 9, 2013 at 1:00 PM

Fools fold their hands and consume their own flesh. Ecclesiastes 4:5


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